If women, then why not LGBTQ people? Sorry about the post going off line. Therefore they cannot be ignored by anyone who would understand his age and his people. My daughter was quite sick with a brain tumor and the church was close by. Purity of Ideology. The King Of Staten Island star opened up in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter that after seven seasons . He put his arm around her during worship time and then went up to preach. Especially when people with no sense at all apply it to 14 year olds. Of course there are issues more central to the gospel than gender issues. And I hope this will spur other conservative churches on to make similar decisions. A church who has in their past the biblical fundamentalism established by Toussaint and Swindoll. Oh max, now I get it. Webb argues that the Bibles ethical position is often one of development, moving from an inferior ethic to an ultimate ethic. One of our fundamental principles is that men and women need each other, in all areas of life. The UMC has struggled and struggled and clergy trials have resulted in broadening the level of acceptance relative to non marital sexual activity for the clergy. Just my take on it. I listened to every word of the Bent Tree Fellowship message. Id actually like to see a point by point rebuttal so hopefully you have time to put one together. God is the Father from Whom all fatherhood in heaven and on earth gets its name. That helps me understand. . Hi JASON, Thank you for your and your churchs witness. The laity may not hear Confessions and pronounce Absolution. As she rose to speak, a number of young men turned their backs on her, showing their disdain for a women teacher. He does not appear to have a testosterone problem. 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. The pages of scripture,give no visable evidence of such a distinction as that of women exercising governmental authority in the Christian church Jesus Christ established. Now let me say, however, that when a church starts deciding who can and who cannot be ordained to Holy Orders including the diaconate there is a slippery slope to be considered. She was the brightest woman I had ever met in the areas of theology, doctrine, church history and preaching. Thank you for providing inspiration and encouragement to the elders of that church at a retreat in early 2005. . What I was most impressed with was the interactions of Stuart and Jill with my teenage children. On the other hand, strict adherence to the words of scripture and ignoring the cultural aspects and/or ignoring that some values in scripture seem almost contradictory to each other, can lead to what we are seeing with the neo-cal movement. For example, whilst God does reveal himself as father, you forget that he also reveals himself as mother (Isaiah 49:15 and many more). Pete Briscoe, Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, TX, talks about what it means to be a trader and how we can remain focused on our mission. I think this point of view is mistaken. But I live a couple of hours from there. So many misuses of scripture to drive toward a point that theyre not even remotely speaking to, to arrive at a justification that has no real biblical foundation. It was the opposite, in fact. I found catholicism much more user friendly and I found that catholics and catholicism itself seems to actually like God (not as common with evangelicals as far as I can get a feel of it) and like/respect each other and even like/respect the clergy. Here's how, Heaven will be diverse. Many know of a few years back of Irving Bibles landmark decision to embrace women as pastors. Here is a link to their doctrinal positions. The laity may not perform the Mass. Now I know why the post was offline. What is that?? And since I recently left the methodists and became an episcopalian I cannot avoid these issues. As I left Dallas, I will always remember what Pete told me. And an egalitarian reading of St Paul has nothing to do with denying his teaching or rejecting the authority and inerrancy of Scripture. Oops, you specifically mentioned church membership for homosexuals and I took off in the direction of women. And I am saying that these things can and do happen. Division seems to have the upper hand these days as an acceptable way of ending any diversity that makes people feel challenged and uncomfortable, but I am glad to see that there are evangelical people out there who have another perspective that represents a longing for peace between brothers in Christ. We had been so grateful for his response but he wanted to admit it publicly. I was surprised to find myself crying as I listened. Therefore, to find justification one must look elseware. Pete is the son of Jill and Stuart Briscoe. I would simply highlight three concerns that I think are salient in this particular case. . I find such a quick resort to division problematic, though, since in John 17 Jesus prays to the Father that the church would be one, so that the world would know the one true God. My niece is a ordained minister. Now what? Please take a look at these issues as they have been considered by the episcopalians and now the methodists and decide on a long term projection as to where if anywhere you want to draw the line. How to Resign from a Church Why? Leaving aside for now a discussion of churches that accept as members people in same-gender relationships, there are at least a few different approaches of which Im aware. As a seminarian who has spent much time studying the Bible, I find it difficult to understand how one can affirm the inerrancy of Scripture while honestly considering the composition of the Bible, the intentions of the author and the intended readership, and the redaction which occurred over several centuries for each text. I have to pray about that a lot. Better yet, I can say that my husband and I felt quite close to Pete. Unlike the Watermark example, the woman repented, reconciled and eventually went on a local Christian radio show with her husband to discuss the experience. Pete Briscoeand the elders of BTBFliveout in practice what many just claim they follow. There are many who join feminist readings of Scripture to a more explicit repudiation of the Bible's integrity and authority. We were short time members of Ed Young Jr's church in Dallas. Ive read some of the writings of both Stuart and Jill Briscoe, and theyre some of the theologians I trust to always have their theology right. I recall you mentioning this church before in such a positive light. I found this quite accidentally and was struck by two things: the replacement of bible content with utilitarianism and your own lack of love for people with whom you disagree by your snarky remarks and condescension (e.g. Once a certain view of scriptures meaning and function have been adopted then what argument can be used to prevent using that same argument concerning other issues also? I have seen Christians growing in the Lord and then others who have gone off into looney tune new age, crystals, Barley green, and selling soap with a picture of a motor home on your fridge, and pseudo spiritual excesses. The Oh they are not believers meme just does not cut it, that is basically what I saw in this book. Reference: John 10:35; Matt. I meant to say that YRR pastors signed their churches up for the Secret Church Simulcast. Find a good combo of water/light for your plant. When I wrote The Complementarian Emperor is Shamefully Underdressed, I asked the question, the question, that sounds the death knell for hierarchical complementarianism: If Paul and Peter were teaching male headship as complementarians say, where did this doctrine come from?. He now coaches. BTW, I heard your mom speak at the Just Give Me Jesus event that was held here in Raleigh in 2002. . Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. I am woman, in my early 70s, over educated, and in the church all my life. You know what really drives historians up the wall? And possibly after that. You have Christians who are non-comps, but since the majority of conservative churches are comp, you have no choice, in most cases, but to put up with comp teachings if you want to go to a church with conservative teachings. To interpret Paul, we have to look at the surrounding situation and most importantly, look at Jesus and what he said and did. Now whether one calls that sliding down a slippery slope or calls it charging up a challenging hill it is all the same thing. Briscoe and the elders say that they intend to be a "conservative" church that maintains a tenacious commitment to the inerrancy of scripture. I need to look that quote up & post it here verbatim as its much better in the original. At the very least, hopefully they will come to appreciate that it is a legitimate viewpoint, and some might even find themselves convinced by it . Oy. It's my belief that Providence Baptist owes you and Bill an apology. I cannot see how a marriage could possibly succeed unless one or the other actually converted from their heart beforehand. He, along with Joanne, are loving leaders who well demonstrate the practical application of servant leaders. Are you up for it, Denny? At the end of the day, a church will either ordain women pastors or they wont. Pete demonstrates something that I believe that is lacking in todays hard line theologians and pastors. I was in a bible study led by one of them, and she has so much wisdom and compassion and good theology that it helped me along in my spiritual healing. A daunting task. Lea wrote: It is ending up somewhere that some people may not have wanted to go. IMO the decisions need to take all the variations and consequences into consideration early on. Theyve never produced the final and perfect version; despite their best effort. Most importantly, how did Jesus treat women? /S /Lbl /P 337 0 R >> /Im30 268 0 R /S /2011#E6#AD#A3#E6#96#87-1 /#20Char#20Char18 /Span /K 4 In endobj /StartIndent 0.0 /S /2011#E6#AD#A3#E6#96#87-1 157 0 obj . Although dividing is often done for the sake of defending a truth that some find absolutely essential to the witness of the Gospel, it seems to denigrate the churchs witness: division in the church leads to divided Christian witness in the world and the world questions which one of these many denominations holds the truth about Christianitys message. We were attending a large leadership meeting at the church. We brought the entire truth out," he said. I have heard this story (or one like it?) It was the opposite, in fact. Tim Harkins. I was not raised in a patriarchal or comp environment so the rise of that thinking was very confusing to me. Denny has never experienced a church like this. You deal with this more graciously than I would. That slippery slope can go both ways, so here goes. First let me remind everybody that the religions tradition where I am now ordains women and I am good with that. . Didnt the same thing happen to Anne Graham Lotz? She was the minister of the Stephen and Women's ministries. I care not for the name, but the evidence is there and easily googled. For Peter Briscoe of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, the most important aspect to the entire process is grace. I say all this because the slippery slope argument has no credibility if people are willing to engage in discussing not indoctrinating. What were the situations that were understood, the things in the local culture that the people who received Pauls letter all knew about and did not need to be spelled out? But really, it just seems like they need to come up with new reasons every 20 years, as the old ones become unacceptable and the current one is culture wars. Secondly, I hope and pray that complementarians will study egalitarian theology in its best expressions. Sadly, I find that Dr. Burk does not reply to some with whom he disagrees not even when they send a personal communique. On the one hand, theres the Dont Ask Dont Tell kind of situation, where everyone suspects that so-and-so might be you-know-what, but as long as no one comes out and says anything, all the straight people are fine with pretending that they dont know what they know. We became friends and whenever she was back on furlough I would try to see her. It is dogeared, post it noted and highlighted to death. An example of this would be slavery. Unchristian in every way I can think of truly. It took the devil to deceive Eve but only a human to deceive Adam. In fact, the action itself was justified but was handled in such a way that outsiders could make assumptions that might be reasonable but were not true. Although Ed Young was kind to us duringAbby's sickness, his theology and antics drove us nuts. The elders continued to meet with the errant husband, begging him to reconsider what he was doing. What about people who are not married, either straight or LGBTQ who admit that they are sexually active. Good to hear at least one evangelical church exists with courageous pastors willing to confront in cases of adultery. In May 2008, you wrote a similar post about another church in Texas that became at least partly egalitarian: https://www.dennyburk.com/irving-bible-church-goes-egalitarian/. However, with a threat that the state convention would take away our building, the church voted, narrowly, to retain the men only provision. @ okrapod: Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. But the 12 Apostles Were All Male He created marriage to bring us joy, so His instructions are well worth reading. Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. Pete grew up in a home withintelligent andcommitted parents: both dad and mom. Similarly, male headship is not normative in the Bible look at Miriam, Deborah, Ruth, Esther, Huldah, for example. I have gone to Janet Parshall now three times with links from either you or Eagle. But I believe GOD, being perfect, got version !.0 right the very first time or Hes no more transcendant than Bill Gates. If male and female are both created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27), that must mean that God also has female attributes, otherwise motherliness is not of God. How blessed I am to have known you. -Pete Briscoe, Former Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible . Pete,Joanneand other members of BTBF had a profound impact on my faith and it is my hope that this post will properly representthe wonderful ministry thatthey have at BTBF. We sat through some crazy teachings, but this was a Beloved Community. I suspect the pain of this must be great for those who harbor integrity within themselves, but bear great love for the community they have known as a family. Thanks for the great examples of how it is supposed to work. Thank you for sharing this, Dee! There is one on Sanibel. "I have a theory why so many pastors burn out: They start out walking with Jesus but they end up working for Jesus." (Pete Briscoe of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrolton, Texas, recalled hearing from someone at a time when he was depressed) Update: I found a similar saying in Oswald Chambers' devotional My Utmost for His Highest: Thats simply not what its for. Likewise, the Bible may teach male headship in marriage and church leadership, but we now know that was wrong. If the pattern of growth in the first century Christian Church included a men only leadership team, and all else was view as contrary to Apostle Pauls written instructions for the formulation of local churches[1], how has pastor Pete Briscoe and his 501(c)3 church leadership team presently gotten around this seemly apparent New Testment limitation? In Spring of 2019 I stepped out of my role as senior Pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. God calls us to repent of our disobedience and obey His commands concerning sex, among them are the commands that 1) woman may not teach and have authority over men, and that 2) man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church. We used to refer to my grandparents church as such and such Baptist country club. There are people who dont understand no matter how much I try to explain it to them. Your comment is more of a springboard for discussion. . Did the Apostle Paul have a certain mind-set that Christians everywhere are wise to emulate? Davidson's contract at SNL was up at the end of 2021. I listened to his talk in full and made notes. Jill Briscoe is one of my favorite Bible teachers. Eve sinned because Adam didnt properly teach her Gods ways, so if women teach in church before they have properly learnt the faith, sin could similarly result. To this day, my husband and I continue to support them in their ministry even though they are still complementarian because theyget it. It is nice to hear some good stories once and a while for a change . do the wives who live under male headship have to leave their consciences behind at the altar when they marry? This should strike fear into the heart of the 9 Marx crowd. Needless to say, he convinced me and soon I started teaching and would continue to teach until I left Dallas for Raleigh. My son disagrees with me about women being ministers or pastors. Pete can take critique and take it well because he is really humble. Yet, her intelligence was tempered by her devastating wit. I too thought it would be authoritarian in the extreme until I got over there and checked it out and was utterly amazed at how mistaken about that I had been. You cant ignore these. Dee and Deb Please keep up your wonderful work And those of you that have been hurtplease keep reaching out God is there He loves you and can be trusted The journey back may take awhile but keep on walking. Would you please email me? I see this happening among acquaintances who are the ages of my husband and myself, and some have adjusted to the changes, and some are having real problems adjusting to their new reality. I would go to Petes church in a heartbeat. The Elder Board has accepted Pete's decision, and his resignation is effective March 31, 2019. Needless to say, he was never asked to pray again. Iattended one on the history of the medieval church. As Platt puts it The objective of Secret Church is not just to come and learn for one night, but also to take what weve learned and pass it along to others. You can read all about it at http://www.radical.net/secret-church/about. To think that Gods word requires an update is to ultimately impugn God; His knowledge and His foresight. I can see that you have thought deeply about preserving unity, so much so that I would guess you are responding to Our Lords own mind and heart. I am going to try to present a picture of Pastor Pete Briscoe, PastorJoanne Hummel and the doctrinal statement of BTBF to bolstermy contention that BTBFisa conservative church from a doctrinal standpointas well as from actual events that I personallywitnessed. At first, their response was somewhat negative yet they decided to dialogue with us. One Sunday, Pete was discussing adultery and said that a couple from BTBF would finish the sermon. 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